Paul: How did you initially meet Tenzin Deleg Rinpoche?

Geshe: I first met Rinpoche in 1980, when Deng Xiaoping had liberalised policies in China and Tibet. However, though there was more relative freedom for religious expression such as reconstructing some destroyed monasteries and opportunities for older monks to return to monastic life, by law children under the age of 18 were not allowed to become monks. So Rinpoche gave young Tibetans opportunities to study and practice monastic education, which is how I had the chance to become a monk.

In 1985 I met Rinpoche again in India and studied Buddhism directly under him for two years. In 1987 Rinpoche went back to Tibet because His Holiness the Dalai Lama advised him that the true duty of a lama is to serve the common people, so he advised Rinpoche to go to Tibet and serve the Tibetans there. From 1987 to 1998 we kept in touch with each other. In 1998 when I went to Tibet I had the opportunity to spend about a month with Rinpoche when he had just started a school in that area. Rinpoche observed that Tibetans in our area are about 100 years behind modern societies and that only 3 or 4 out of 1,000 Tibetans were educated, so Rinpoche asked me to help him with his educational projects. In 2000 I went back to Tibet with the hope that I would be able to assist Rinpoche in his educational, social and economic projects. But when I arrived, far from being able to help Rinpoche, I was thrown into a political whirlpool. I eventually escaped from Tibet and went to America to seek asylum. From 2000 to 2002 I managed to keep in touch with Rinpoche by phone. That would be the bulk of my personal relationship with Rinpoche.

Paul: Can you describe Rinpoche? How is he perceived in his local community?

Geshe: Rinpoche is someone who respects and loves justice, and in the pursuit of justice Rinpoche is fearless and straightforward. That is the reason why he faced problems with the Chinese authorities. He is someone who respects and supports the His Holiness the Dalai Lama one hundred percent. Rinpoche would tell people that for social order, national unity and world peace it is imperative that everyone heeds and supports His Holiness the Dalai Lama's positions and teachings. Rinpoche, when confronted by a poor and needy person, will leave no stone unturned to help.

Although Lithang is not very densely populated, being a nomadic area with about 50,000 people, over 40,000 respect and support Rinpoche. The respect that he commands is proven by the fact that when there is a problem, for example a family dispute, rather than go to the judicial system instituted by China they will go to Rinpoche to arbitrate.

Simon: Given Rinpoche's history with the Chinese authorities was he expecting to be imprisoned?

Geshe: Rinpoche definitely suspected it was a matter of time before he would be arrested, but Rinpoche persisted in staying in Tibet because he said, "I could leave and go to a foreign country, but I have a very strong karmic link with the people of Tibet and I have not done anything wrong so I see no reason to abandon my people and flee to freedom." So Rinpoche persisted in staying in Tibet despite the fact that he may be arrested. Rinpoche felt that he started schools, monasteries and health clinics for the good of the common people. "If the Chinese Government considers that (my work) is a crime then I am helpless, but I haven't done anything politically seditious. So I have no reason to suspect the government to arrest me, but I have taken a vow to stay in Tibet and serve the people and I will perform my promise."

Paul: Why do you think China singled out Rinpoche for a death sentence?

Geshe: The core of China's Tibet strategy is to weed out any support for the Dalai Lama and negate his influence in Tibet. Rinpoche is someone who wholeheartedly supports the Dalai Lama and combined with the fact that tens of thousands of people follow Rinpoche, China suspected Rinpoche was fomenting anti-Chinese, pro-Tibetan feelings among the people.

Simon: What impact has his death sentence had on the local community?

Geshe: It has resulted in a very negative outcome, because the school that he started, the orphanage, the old people's home and four of the nine monasteries that he built have closed. The remaining monasteries function under very difficult circumstances. There is also a considerable rise in alcoholism, violence and disputes among local Tibetans.

So if Rinpoche is executed the problems that have cropped up after his arrest will continue to deteriorate and it will be very bad indeed for the people in that area. But if Rinpoche is not executed he might not be allowed to go back and continue his activities, so it will certainly continue to have some impact. But it will activate some of the ill-feeling and resentment against the Chinese, authorities because Rinpoche's imprisonment has created a lot of anger and resentment, albeit pent up so far. If he is executed the reservoir of anger will continue to grow and grow, so a commutation of the death sentence will at least hold, if not reverse, this reservoir of anger.

Paul: How do you think Rinpoche is coping at the moment?

Geshe: At heart, because the Rinpoche is a monk and practitioner of Buddhism, he is bold and brave enough to survive any challenge and adversity. But I am not able to comment on his physical well-being and how the Chinese authorities are treating him physically.

Simon: Can you summarise Rinpoche's approach to the environment and if that links into his nomadic childhood?

Geshe: Rinpoche's nomadic background during his childhood did not have much to do with his approach to the environment later in his life because when he was a child he was living under a communist system, especially during the Cultural Revolution and so he was undergoing hard labour and didn't have much education or opportunities. His interest in the environmental matters developed when he went to India and listened to His Holiness the Dalai Lama talk about the importance of preserving and protecting the environment. When he went back to Tibet in 1987 he started to practice his environmental ideas that he developed in India.

Simon: Rinpoche had specific interests in mining and hunting. Can you tell us what was mined, if there are particular species that were overhunted and whether it was the Chinese that were doing this or whether there was a Tibetan involvement?

Geshe: Rinpoche worked to stop mining in certain areas and to protect the local wildlife. Gold was the principal mineral that was mined.They mined gold from the mountains irrespective of Tibetan traditional belief in spirits and deities that live in the mountains. They were also mining for metallic ores which were used for producing steel or iron. Extensive mining caused flooding and the destruction of pasture land for animals. There were severe problems of flooding in the summers, monsoon season, and the prevalence of mysterious diseases amongst the animals and cattle.

Musk deer and a special breed of Tibetan antelope, white in colour with blue tails, were heavily poached by Chinese and Tibetans. The poachers used some kind of metal trap which would actually capture any animal that falls into it. And many other wild species were poached. Rinpoche sent crowds of people into the mountains to prevent the poaching and he would give cattle to the hunters to stop their practices.

Another issue is the indiscriminate felling of trees. The Chinese have categorised forests into state forests and people's forests. When the state forests were completely destroyed they started to fell trees from the people's forests. He lobbied officials that destroying the ancient forests would bring about catastrophic results. He was successful in preventing the destruction of some of these forests.

Paul: How long had Rinpoche been giving cattle to poachers?

Geshe: From around 1987 until 2002 when he was arrested.

Simon: How was the partitioning of forest land regulated and was their any corruption involved?

Geshe: The felling of trees have been carried out since 1982 but the division of forests into state and people's forests took place in 1987. You could see that the division and categorisation took place in 1986 because there were numbers, the years, written on trees. I wouldn't know for sure what role corruption played, or to what extent, but I'm quite sure that after the state forests were exhausted, were totally wiped out, the encroachment and felling of trees from the people's side of the forests, was mainly a result of corruption because local government officials may have taken bribes from private corporations to fell those trees.

Simon: Was there any private logging activity or just government logging?

Geshe: I know that corruption took place and private individuals and corporations had a role because some government officials would cut forests and then transport them in trucks for their own use and they may have sold them to private corporations and taken huge sums of money for that.

Rinpoche was actually successful in preventing excessive logging on the people's side of the forests but there was a law that a family could, for example, fell two or three trees a year for their private purposes. But the trees that were felled from the state forests were actually transported to China by using rivers. Rinpoche took pictures of felled trees and rotting remains, trunks, to show the government that there was an environmental disaster in the making.

When it comes to protection of environment and wildlife Rinpoche is unprecedented in Tibetan history. He boldly stood up against the government in his efforts to protect wildlife and forests in his area. As far as I know there wasn't any Tibetan who went to that extent. Rinpoche himself said once that "when it comes to serving the needs of the people and protecting the local environment I am ready to give up even my life." I don't think that there was any individual in the whole of China who did what Rinpoche did.

Paul: Finally, do you have a message for Free Tibet Campaign supporters?

Geshe: It is very important that individual citizens not only do their bit, such as writing to their government, but also provide financial, administrative and volunteering support to Free Tibet Campaign. I also appeal to all supporters to give their utmost support to the Dalai Lama's approach to resolving the Sino-Tibetan conflict, because the Dalai Lama has initiated a very reasonable approach which is not based on serving the self-centred interests of the Tibetan people but actually designed to cater to the mutual interests of both Tibetans and Chinese. I feel it is a very reasonable approach which deserves the support of every individual in this world. When I say you have to give support to the Dalai Lama's Middle Way approach I am not saying that you should stop campaigning for Rinpoche and jump to another cause. I believe it is important that you finish what you start.

Paul: Geshe, thank you very much.